All the best!

Jesus was the Torah in the flesh, so naturally such a thing would be rather upsetting! The modern idea that Jesus broke Torah rules is sort of amusing as if He did, He would not have been sinless. Jesus broke the traditions…never the Law. In the immortal words of Judge Dredd, ” I am the Law”!

That is why Christ said do as they say, but not as they do.

Agreed, Pharisitical thinking is not confined to Evangelicals. But is it a main characteristic of the Evangelicals?…no. No more so that whatever movement you belong to. You can be just as legalistic in your liberalism too by implying everyone must fly just like you…like somehow you’ve gotten ahold of Christianity v2.0.

in contrast to what you have said, is that as one becomes more firmly rooted in the love of God, what others think about who one is becomes less and less important.
Actually, that is exactly what I am saying. See posts 15, 18, and 23.

I fully concede that we believe in the same Lord and Savior despite our obvious disagreements on peripheral issues.

To me, being free means that I am free to pursue his laws and precepts without fear of condemnation. This is for my benefit, not God’s. The Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath so to speak. Thus, I learn as I follow. Yet I live with the knowledge of the fact that my shortcomings are not held against me because Christ lived the perfect life in my place. Once for all for the ungodly. THAT is freedom. The One Gospel. The One truth.

“The law of the Lord is good, reviving the soul” Ps 19:7
“All scripture is useful for teaching, rebuking and training in righteousness”2 Ti 3:16

Being free doesn’t mean you kick of your heels and go dancing care-free into the woods. That kind of faith will last about 5 minutes in Sudan, Afghanistan, or any other country where Christians are not tolerated. I don’t know if that is what you’re saying, but the vaugeness of your argument implys it to me. If it does not, then I apologize for my misunderstanding of your stance.

By the way…that’s my main #1 grief against liberalism by the way too! The me me me, I’m free to do anything, me me me. Truth is, we ARE free to, but it’s the abuse of that freedom that reveals the heart. Since when were God’s ordinances a terrible thing to be free of? Doesn’t give God a lot of credit does it?

I like the Moses/Elijah/Isaiah/Apostles/”every major player in the Bible” view…you are chosen, now GO. Mother Theresa was not led by feelings and had terrible doubts about her mission and faith. But God bless her soul, she knew what she had to do. Being a Christian to me is not and never has been about “good-feelings”. It is WAR.

Throughout the Bible, the number of believers that were led by good feelings and promises of bliss are 0. You may have guessed I’m not a big fan of the “health and wealth gospel” either. That my gripe #2. However, in all fairness liberalism hasn’t claimed exclusive right to that by a long shot.

Perhaps I’m a BIT cynical, but I’m definetly pragmatic. Christ works in a real world that is suffering, and often the call from God means that you too shall suffer, even in spirit. The great Christian men and women of history really took it on the chin hard because they knew that war was hell.

No, that doesn’t sound nice. But I’m not selling a car either.

Bottom line…how Christ interacts with each of us is personal. Some want the “feel-good-and fly” like apparently you do. Great. Have a ball. Just know that not everyone can have or even WANT what you experience. For me it’s the knowledge of His word being a unchanging rock in a world that’s gone to hell. In that, I can rest. And for this simple family man, that’s more than enough.

I think that covers everything as this horse is now beaten and dead and starting to resemble hamburger. I’ve ranted, raved and bore my soul! I even threw a couple liberal gripes in there. Blogmeister Cal may do another blog realted to liberalism and I’m sure I’ll show up there.

To everyone else, I hope you enjoyed the show, and be sure to tip your waiter on the way out.

I’ll let you have the last word. Try not to ask questions as it is after all, the last word!

In Christ Alone,
Billy!

I like your spice. You are the sort of man that would liven up any boring dinner party. And there is not really much fellowship and dinner on facebook is there?

Alas, I am disappointed that you would want to make it easy for me though. A real lady always likes a challenge….

The truth is Billy, in contrast to what you have said, is that as one becomes more firmly rooted in the love of God, what others think about who one is becomes less and less important.

As far as Grace is concerned – if Jesus was, is, and will always be, full of Grace, mercy, & truth, then why would he challenge the pharisees with so much vigor? “Brood of nasty vipers”?

The attack is against thinking which enslaves, Billy. Not against the “evangelicals”. And not against you.
You are a child of God. Period.
Pharisaical thinking is not confined to Evangelicals, or Lutheran, or the church of Christ or any denomination. It is a mindset Christ came to free all of his beloved children from.
His perfect love sets his children free. Free from fear. Free from judgment. Free to fly with him while being lavished with a Love so extravagant as to almost terrify. Transforming to say the least!!

The question is do you want to love your peers through Him or through your behaviour and conformity?

Hold the truck for just a moment.

I want to hear from you one thing in simple terms -

“What is that One gospel…One truth?”

There is no right answer.

If you answer YES, then it becomes a situation where you have no self-confidence in the face of a peer-group that thinks differently than you. You are not truly free after all, because what they think means so much to you that you overcompensate by attacking them. Big bad evangelicals…THEY made ME feel bad.

If you answer NO, then you deflate the whole argument. You’ve shown that you believe in freedom and grace…but only insofar as it benefits you. After all, those nasty evangelicals should be more like you, right?

Not everybody has the same convictions as you. Agreed, there is One gospel…One truth. But the problem comes when you jump up and down denouncing them as not showing enough grace, not realizing you’ve become the very thing you denounce by doing so.

ps. …and Facebook has sort of made high school reunions a mite obsolete, don’t you think?

psx2 …and if you still want the truck “backed up”, let me know.

And the truck will be backing up after that.

I would love to hear a truckload of examples.

regards, Vivien.

“Scared to fly”…WHAT are you even talking about? Are you implying that in order to fly you must leave the “evangelicals”…because that is what it sure sounds like.

And the statement regarding liberalism and legalism stands. And I can back a truckload of examples up if you’d like.

Ouch!

What happened at your high school reunion?

ps. Scared to fly with God?

Sorry, but I have to say, try as I might I haven’t the faintest idea of what you’re talking about beyond that. Time machines, wings, and dancing? Can we move beyond the Max Lucado metaphors to perhaps a more concrete description of what’s really going on…and that is what is this BIG THING(s) that the “evangelicals” are so adamant against? Your happiness? Your “feelings” of belonging? Got some terrible news for you…nobody can give you that. I don’t care what church you go to. That’s a personal thing you have to deal with.

Here’s a real life story…high school reunions! Have you ever noticed the most pathetic people there are the ones who what to “show everyone”? That’s because to live your life in the hopes of impressing another human being is simply sad. Confident people don’t do that. These are type of people who shape history.

Look, if anything the church is suffering from a rampant LIBERALISM, not LEGALISM. The people shouting “legalism” are usually the people who are angry that anyone had the nerve to call them on a behavior that they know darn well is out of line.

In essence, if I may use your time machine story, it’s like me going back in time and getting exactly as I deserve because I disrespected the culture. Swings both ways. It’s not always about you/me.

So is the moral of the story to leave the “evangelical church” and “fly” alone with God? Maybe we should both agree to not use stories, because now I’m totally confused.

Sorry I could understand your story. It looks like you went through a lot of work though!

What do you think it would be like to be stuck in a time warp? I mean, not being able to “make it back” to the living reality of your own time? Would it be one of those “when in Rome” things, or would there be an undeniable frantic and underlying terror lodged in your heart? And a deep longing to go back to where you know you are loved. Your travel ship is annihilated. There is hostility in the area and it seems no one cares.
You have been there awhile, you are hungry, tired, lonely, angry. You have done things you didn’t want to do to get food. The shame and the self hatred have crept in as if overnight. But you have been there for so long, or have you? You are confused. You try to think straight. You go to the camp and say you are sorry and it happens again. They throw you out. Come back later, when you know better, they say. And it is cold outside. If only, you could try harder and be better. You are so bad. But they were doing the same things.. or were they? Oh, you say, I wish Daddy was here to tell me what to do. He would know. I’ll show them I can be good.
But I am so old now. And tired. I wonder if I could just be like them…. But I want to be me. Whatever that is anymore.
I think I will just sleep now.
I wish there was another way.
naw, I’m just dreaming. And besides, I can’t break the laws of the camp. They’ll throw me outside.
Someone crazy was telling me that the one who gave them the rules said we don’t have to follow them anymore. what does he know??
I don’t think so. Doesn’t he know that I don’t want to be a camp rule breaker? That I don’t want to be outside here in the cold? what an idiot.
But I am so cold. Is it warm in the camp? I don’t know. Who cares.
I deserve this. Anyone could tell you that.
Why would anyone make rules I can’t keep? And then tell me to keep them and then not to keep them? Is he crazy? I am not trying hard enough. I have to find out what the camp leaders are doing to keep the rules. If only I knew someone in there. In a high position. They eat well in there. I am sure they do. They.. oh whatever.
What does that guy know anyway. He says they like the times they live in. He says they don’t want to get out. He says they are biding their time while they are waiting for the time to end. Why does a part of me want to get out of here? it seems like a thousand miles to get out of here. What if its farther. Oh man. I think I’ll just go to the camp and get some food. Maybe they won’t notice me. I am much thinner now.
I hate them.
Whatever.
But I will try to love them. Because that is the kind of person I am.
What is that over there?
It’s that guy again. What does he want? What a pain.
He’s just standing there. And he has a strange look on his face. And his eyes. they are different. I am scared and I want to look away, but I can’t. It’s like he can see me. Like I have been looked at for the first time. He’s smiling. What a lunatic. Doesn’t he know how hideous I am? He’s calling me. But it is in the opposite direction of the camp – where the food is.
I feel so alone. They said I had to go to the camp or I would die. But every time I go…
oh daddy. I wish you were here. Why aren’t you here?
Who is that?
I am so tired. He looks kind. I know it is a trick.
There is no way out of here.
He’s here! Right in front of me. Oh no, He is sitting right beside me now. I didn’t notice how he got over here.
I feel something. A sort of memory. Like the place I came from. Before the ship crashed.
He’s talking. He says,”I am with you, Harry”. How did he know my name? I feel good.
Oh God, he’s growing wings. He’s telling me to get on. I can’t. The camp. I have to show them. I have to. But this man, I mean bird. Ohhhh………
I don’t think I can walk back to the camp. Maybe I can crawl. Someone will see me and they will send out good strong men to carry me in. But..
Oh man.
The bird is calling me. He says I can go back if I want to. That I am free.
What? His wings look warm.
I am on! We are flying.
He is telling me not to look back.
He is telling me that the rules of the camp have been written on my heart. That I can just fly with him. I am asking him how. He says keep your eyes on me.
I really want to ask him why my name is Harry, but I am starting to like my name.
And he says he is taking me to others who like their name now too. He says they dance.

Is this a “what can I get away with” question? The “yee-hah I’m saved, so now let’s par-tay!” cannot be what you’re saying.

The question makes no sense to me due to its vaugeness. I’m being myself the second I wake up to the time I lie down to bed. How far I am being myself is all the way. How can I “half” be myself? The problems occur when I live contrary to God’s ordinances. So no, I am not free to be a lawbreaker. That is the stopping point.

Learning to walk as Christ did is the 1000 mile journey! Thus, the dynamic and changing walk with God. We are free to pursue the will of God without condemnation. We are not free to kick up a lazy-boy recliner and say “thanks God…I’ll take it from here.” That is a static and unchanging position. Perhaps this expounds on my earlier post with more clarity.

“Are you seriously trying to separate God from our self-worth/identity?”

Not even remotely…I’m separating the church as responsible for our sense of self-worth. That has been the whole point of this blog-post, that “the evangelicals” are somehow rule-factories that are intent on making people feel bad about themselves. Expecting others to compensate for yours/my sense of worth is simply put, poor taste. A comedian once said, “do you know who cares about you less than you…everyone!” Agreed, this is sad, but pragmatically and factually true. Our sense of self-worth is God-centric in a healthy Christian life. That has been the point all along. Which means “the evangelicals” are guilty of merely being human who are all on varying parts of the 1000 mile road.

I’m finding this discussion to be very interesting!

“So…what you’re saying ( pardon my need for clairty ) is that we are free to in essence, be ourselves? Sure, I can go along with that.”

How far?

“But I also feel that attitude if taken too far can lead to a rather static or unchanging personal development. Walking with God is dynamic and changing.”

Contradictory?

Are you seriously trying to separate God from our self-worth/identity?

I’ll leave any context to you and your own journey!

Love and Respect,

Vivien!

ps Jesus didn’t please everyone, but God, His Father was pleased in Him.

But I also feel that attitude if taken too far can lead to a rather static or unchanging personal development. Walking with God is dynamic and changing. But I’m preaching to the choir here…

What would stop us?…hmmm. Thinking. Thinking. I think we’re exiting the “theological” and entering issues of self-confidence and senses of self-worth.

Now, am I picking up that what is being said is that “the church” has put a roadblock up for people who want to be themselves AND in turn is affecting their sense of self-worth or self-expression? I guess I need some context or an example or two. Whenever I hear that someone is disgruntled at the church that way my ears tend to perk up with a definite suspicion. There’s the old saying, “you can’t please everyone”.

So maybe I’m also part of the problem…!

I really like that you have written “to what”. I believe in freedom TO express ourselves, our mind, our hearts, our dreams, our disappointments, our successes, our failures. And much more. Much more.

Now the real question seems to be here: freedom FROM what? Because the “freedom TO” I have just described sounds fairly simple doesn’t it? Almost banal; if stripped of its natural growth in a bath of pure intimacy…

Now. What would stop us from engaging heartily in such?
What was it that stopped you from expressing your idea of freedom?

I am getting the idea that you own a brilliant mind perhaps screaming to escape the boredom of the boardroom!

Vivien.

see this transcript: http://www.realanswers.net/lifesquestions/01_EternalSecurity.html.

In particular:

“In addition to completely forgiving us, however, God did not leave us as we were. He took up residence in us, giving us His life. Thus the gospel, in essence, is: Jesus gave His life for you, so that He could give His life to you, so that He could live His life through you. That’s why Paul wrote, ‘I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me’” (Galatians 2:20).

There’s also a few podcasts on his site that appear to address the topic. I haven’t listened to them yet however: http://www.realanswers.net/radio/podcast.xml

Hope this helps.

I think we may have to define our terms as “freedom” is starting to sound like one of those buzzwords executives use in boardroom meetings that ultimately has no clear definition.

Thanks for sharing your heart. I like your point about the cloning. That would be boring!! I agree it is much better to be ourselves and to express our uniqueness. And our pain. In freedom. And our joy. In freedom. It’s sort of hard to define freedom though. How do you define it, Billy?

Vivien.

I am indeed a believer in Christ in the orthodox sense…meaning that I would be a “born again” believer by modern definition. He is my Lord and He is my Savior.

I try to view Christ as who He indeed is historically and Biblically. I despise post modern views of Christ as self-delusion at best.

I guess my only quirk with this particular blog is the labeling of “evangelicals” as the big-bad-hypocrites. Everyone is a hypocrite. I mean, lets say we clone 100 copies of you, or me, and make a church out of them. Do you think it would somehow be more perfect than “those evangelicals”?

Now going back to Cal’s earlier post saying “what other name would you suggest?” Hey, go ahead and use the name, nobody’s faulting you for that. It’s probably the best to use given the context of this discussion. It’s just that there seems to be this prevalent theme of the “evangelical churches” being “rule-factories”. I guess I just don’t see it. And linking some guys song to evangelical Christendom doctrinal statements seems somewhat of a straw man argument. So it’s #1…OK. So was “No Fear” by Clay Crosse a few years back, but I’m not a pre-tribulationist. ( Certainly not in the Tim LayHaye sense! )

I must concede that perhaps I’m simply unaware of the context of what the blogger is trying to state.

PS to blogger: This is now a legitimate e-mail address. Sorry for the confusion! Promise to keep my nose clean from here on

If what I have to do to be acceptable in Evangelical circles is become some type of “Stepford Christian” – no brain, no personality, etc. well, that’s not the Jesus I worship!

Evangelical is now the seventh largest demographic group in the United States.

http://www.adherents.com/adh_dem.html

It (Especially when used in the context of the word, “Fundamentalist,”) has become a synonym for the Christian Right in much of the mainstream press:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_right

such that a group of other believers have had to write a manifesto to try and rebut it’s rather monolithic appearance.

http://www.anevangelicalmanifesto.com

and many others are simply fleeing from the term entirely.

It comprises the vast majority of those who are now considered, “Emerging Church,”:

http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&BarnaUpdateID=245

(That’s a nice term for those 50% of believers who have not left the faith but have left the bricks and mortar building and are not coming back…) (Do the math with the fine print at the bottom in, “Research methods.”)

and it increasingly is being used as a media catch all for nearly anything that is not Catholic, Anglican or, so called, mainstream Churches.

What other term would you suggest?

His song is climbing towards #1 on the Christian charts and getting huge air play. SIRIUS is playing it about every three hours alone.

Silence can speak — so can dollars — so can popularity…

They all tell us what a people group believes.

Cal

P.S., Again, please at least use the same nonsense email address so my system can auto approve your posts.

From looking at the Church, it doesn’t appear that the Gifts of the Spirit include the gift of credible historical research.

They rush on the cities,
They run on the walls.
Great is the army that carries out His word.
They rush on the cities,
They run on the walls.
Great is the army that carries out His word.
The Lord utters His voice
Before His Army
The Lord utters His voice
Before His Army
Blow the trumpet in Zion Zion,
Sound an alarm on My holy mountain
Blow the trumpet in Zion Zion,
Sound an alarm on My holy mountain
Sound the alarm…
Repeat ad nauseum

“You give and take away
You give and take away
My heart will choose to say
Lord, blessed be Your name”

Take away what? Our sin yes, but I don’t think this is what the author is referring to.