Comments on: Evangelical abstinence? http://www.henze-associates.com/blog/2008/10/29/cal/evangelical-abstinence/ 'cause you know you're curious... Thu, 26 Jan 2012 18:37:14 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Vivien http://www.henze-associates.com/blog/2008/10/29/cal/evangelical-abstinence/comment-page-1/#comment-16053 Vivien Fri, 31 Oct 2008 04:45:43 +0000 http://www.henze-associates.com/blog/?p=1010#comment-16053 <p>I love that song.</p> I love that song.

]]> By: Kathy http://www.henze-associates.com/blog/2008/10/29/cal/evangelical-abstinence/comment-page-1/#comment-16051 Kathy Thu, 30 Oct 2008 17:18:24 +0000 http://www.henze-associates.com/blog/?p=1010#comment-16051 <p>Reminds me of this song by the Newsboys. Which is sung in our church but not like anyone actually means it if you know what I mean.</p> <p>I am Free</p> <p>Through You the blind will see Through You the mute will sing Through You the dead will rise Through You all hearts will praise Through You the darkness flees Through You my heart screams, I am free!</p> <p>I am free to run (I am free to run) I am free to dance (I am free to dance) I am free to live for you (I am free to live for you) I am free (I am free)</p> <p>Chorus: I am free I am free I am free to run (I am free to run) I am free to dance (I am free to dance) I am free to live for you (I am free to live for you I am free (I am free) Yes I am free</p> Reminds me of this song by the Newsboys. Which is sung in our church but not like anyone actually means it if you know what I mean.

I am Free

Through You the blind will see
Through You the mute will sing
Through You the dead will rise
Through You all hearts will praise
Through You the darkness flees
Through You my heart screams, I am free!

I am free to run
(I am free to run)
I am free to dance
(I am free to dance)
I am free to live for you
(I am free to live for you)
I am free
(I am free)

Chorus:
I am free
I am free
I am free to run
(I am free to run)
I am free to dance
(I am free to dance)
I am free to live for you
(I am free to live for you
I am free
(I am free)
Yes I am free

]]> By: Vivien http://www.henze-associates.com/blog/2008/10/29/cal/evangelical-abstinence/comment-page-1/#comment-16050 Vivien Thu, 30 Oct 2008 13:59:40 +0000 http://www.henze-associates.com/blog/?p=1010#comment-16050 <p>ps, Hi Kim,</p> <p>This seems like an opportunity to share something God recently revealed to me. I had been thinking for a long time about the verse:</p> <p>"Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God." (Ephesians 5:1-2NIV)</p> <p>I imagine that a lot of Christians I know would ask this in light of "what would Jesus do" - then they would read the bible and come up with a behavioral morally based answer... ( sounds good, but hasn't worked for me)</p> <p>I was trying to reconcile this verse with my movement towards following His spirit and not living by my own efforts and my behavior, or rather how I would explain this verse in light of my new spirit led life.</p> <p>My daughter is hilarious. She can really imitate characters from movies, so much that there is no mistake who it really is. Her facial expressions, her voice intonations..everything is bang on. One day, I tried to imitate one of the funny guys we watched on a movie. It was fairly pathetic and got groans from my daughter. I started to realize that she could do it because she was watching this character over and over again without taking her eyes of of him. I, on the other hand, was glancing at the character, and thinking about other things and really couldn't master anything close to a valid imitation. I was also very self conscious as I tried to bring this thing to life.</p> <p>It dawned on me then, that what God means again by the Ephesians verse above, is to keep my eyes fixed on Jesus, the author and perfecter of my faith...</p> <p>To keep my eyes on HIM, is to follow His lead, His spirit, to the point that I am so totally immersed in His love that I am unaware of what I or anyone else thinks about me. I am free. I am beautiful. My behavior is not an issue. But at that point it is a life giving force that is breathtaking and powerful in its love, grace, and freedom.</p> <p>And yes Ros, it is Fun & Fancy Free!!!!!!!!!!!</p> <p>A birthday card someone gave me has the verse "You have set my heart free." Psalm 119:32 NIV</p> ps, Hi Kim,

This seems like an opportunity to share something God recently revealed to me. I had been thinking for a long time about the verse:

“Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.” (Ephesians 5:1-2NIV)

I imagine that a lot of Christians I know would ask this in light of “what would Jesus do” – then they would read the bible and come up with a behavioral morally based answer… ( sounds good, but hasn’t worked for me)

I was trying to reconcile this verse with my movement towards following His spirit and not living by my own efforts and my behavior, or rather how I would explain this verse in light of my new spirit led life.

My daughter is hilarious.
She can really imitate characters from movies, so much that there is no mistake who it really is. Her facial expressions, her voice intonations..everything is bang on. One day, I tried to imitate one of the funny guys we watched on a movie. It was fairly pathetic and got groans from my daughter.
I started to realize that she could do it because she was watching this character over and over again without taking her eyes of of him. I, on the other hand, was glancing at the character, and thinking about other things and really couldn’t master anything close to a valid imitation. I was also very self conscious as I tried to bring this thing to life.

It dawned on me then, that what God means again by the Ephesians verse above, is to keep my eyes fixed on Jesus, the author and perfecter of my faith…

To keep my eyes on HIM, is to follow His lead, His spirit, to the point that I am so totally immersed in His love that I am unaware of what I or anyone else thinks about me. I am free. I am beautiful.
My behavior is not an issue. But at that point it is a life giving force that is breathtaking and powerful in its love, grace, and freedom.

And yes Ros, it is Fun & Fancy Free!!!!!!!!!!!

A birthday card someone gave me has the verse “You have set my heart free.” Psalm 119:32 NIV

]]> By: Kathy http://www.henze-associates.com/blog/2008/10/29/cal/evangelical-abstinence/comment-page-1/#comment-16048 Kathy Thu, 30 Oct 2008 13:40:32 +0000 http://www.henze-associates.com/blog/?p=1010#comment-16048 <p>Jesus gave his life to us so He could life His life through us.</p> <p>It's not about putting your butt in the pews every Sunday morning and "trying to be good" through your own efforts. It's about relationship with Christ.</p> <p>"Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than standing in a garage makes you a car." - unknown.</p> <p>And, well said Vivien and Cal. Much better @ this than I am!</p> Jesus gave his life to us so He could life His life through us.

It’s not about putting your butt in the pews every Sunday morning and “trying to be good” through your own efforts. It’s about relationship with Christ.

“Going to church doesn’t make you a Christian anymore than standing in a garage makes you a car.” – unknown.

And, well said Vivien and Cal. Much better @ this than I am!

]]> By: Vivien http://www.henze-associates.com/blog/2008/10/29/cal/evangelical-abstinence/comment-page-1/#comment-16047 Vivien Thu, 30 Oct 2008 13:19:07 +0000 http://www.henze-associates.com/blog/?p=1010#comment-16047 <p>Shame and guilt are so powerful aren't they? When we focus on the lie that sex is bad. and yes it sounds like they are saying that sex is good when you are married....but that is not really the message sent home. the message is that if you are feeling desire you are not pure. and so it goes... the need to be loved, the God given desires, they are all skewed to the left when we attempt to harness or control them. So we attempt to convince and control and forge purity. And as always, if in our own efforts, the thing we are trying to force busts loose and bites us.</p> <p>When we are truly loved by a God who knows us and wants what is best for us there is no shame, no guilt.</p> <p>I tell my daughter who is turning 13 soon, that all the feelings and desires she is feeling and will be feeling are powerful, God given, good, right, noble, and true. they are hers. I tell her that she is free. I tell her that when she knows that she will be a powerful force. That she will draw goodness to her. That she will call people (men/boys) to something higher. They will respond to it. they will be charmed and awed by it. They will respect it. Without shame, the ones who would want to trick her and use her guilt to get her to do things that would hurt her, are powerless. I tell her, that she can pick later when the timing is right, from the ones who recognize that she is a princess.</p> <p>This may sound precarious, but I have learned it to be true in my own life after much trauma from a shame/guilt/superwomanbased efforted life.</p> <p>Just the truth of who Jesus is, His intimacy, his Spirit, His way will bring us to clean water. Nothing else.</p> <p>Vivien.</p> Shame and guilt are so powerful aren’t they? When we focus on the lie that sex is bad. and yes it sounds like they are saying that sex is good when you are married….but that is not really the message sent home. the message is that if you are feeling desire you are not pure. and so it goes…
the need to be loved, the God given desires, they are all skewed to the left when we attempt to harness or control them.
So we attempt to convince and control and forge purity.
And as always, if in our own efforts, the thing we are trying to force busts loose and bites us.

When we are truly loved by a God who knows us and wants what is best for us there is no shame, no guilt.

I tell my daughter who is turning 13 soon, that all the feelings and desires she is feeling and will be feeling are powerful, God given, good, right, noble, and true.
they are hers.
I tell her that she is free. I tell her that when she knows that she will be a powerful force. That she will draw goodness to her. That she will call people (men/boys) to something higher. They will respond to it. they will be charmed and awed by it. They will respect it.
Without shame, the ones who would want to trick her and use her guilt to get her to do things that would hurt her, are powerless.
I tell her, that she can pick later when the timing is right, from the ones who recognize that she is a princess.

This may sound precarious, but I have learned it to be true in my own life after much trauma from a shame/guilt/superwomanbased efforted life.

Just the truth of who Jesus is, His intimacy, his Spirit, His way will bring us to clean water.
Nothing else.

Vivien.

]]> By: Cal http://www.henze-associates.com/blog/2008/10/29/cal/evangelical-abstinence/comment-page-1/#comment-16045 Cal Thu, 30 Oct 2008 07:25:39 +0000 http://www.henze-associates.com/blog/?p=1010#comment-16045 <p>Hi Kim,</p> <p>One could also assume that if a parent has the concern that their kids not be messing around, that they take the time to find one of these purity balls, that they take the time to attend all of the joint classes and then spend an evening at this thing, we likely have a means of selecting from the larger sample those Evangelicals who, at least in their own minds, are fairly fervent followers of that faith.</p> <p>Those are the very teens repeatedly shown to be in the most trouble.</p> <p>That can mean one of two things:</p> <p>(1). They are following an invalid faith -- invalid because it doesn't work.</p> <p>(2). They are not following a valid faith which would work should they do so.</p> <p>True, we are dealing with an entire demographic here of which some are less fervent then others -- but it is a demographic that claims that the, "Way," they offer = change. Statistically, if that were true, then the change should be impacting some of the members. Statistically, that impact should be evident or at least there should not be a negative shift seen.</p> <p>To claim that this is indeed so in spite of the numbers seen, one would have to prove some outside variable (All promiscuous people go to church to not change their behavior and thus skew the sample for example) for one to see increased promiscuity and still claim the system works. Selecting out those people (As per first paragraph) should then deliver dramatically different results -- but it doesn't.</p> <p>You seem to be assuming that the actions of these teens are caused by a life which actually is just the playing of a societal role or something. We could agree to that for a few kids -- except it's the entire demographic and repeated studies of such have found the same. We have to handle the entire demographic as a whole. So, we are back to the above two options.</p> <p>My contention is that option #2 is the reality. That a faith based on shame/guilt tactics (Eg. Purity balls) is not a valid following of Christ -- and thus will not work.</p> <p>I care not at all for the people's ethics -- Everyone usually knows when what they are doing is stupid. That changes nothing. (Even the demons know -- but it changes nothing there too.) If ethics would fix this, then we wouldn't be having this discussion.</p> <p>Change doesn't seem to be coming from trying harder -- so the faith needs to offer something. Either it offers a new formula of trying harder and some motivation to go along with such -- or it offers something different.</p> <p>My contention is that it should be a heart change founded upon intimacy with Christ -- a Christ they still have people afraid of because they are still preaching a Jesus who died to get you to behave -- rather then One who died to take sin away. (Yes, technically through me dying with Him to Sin, Law, Judgment etc.)</p> <p>If Jesus really did die to take sin away, then I have no judgment to fear from Him -- and I can hang out with Him -- and hanging out with Him transformed and is transforming my heart -- so I WANT to walk with Him and I don't WANT to do stupid things.</p> <p>Cal</p> Hi Kim,

One could also assume that if a parent has the concern that their kids not be messing around, that they take the time to find one of these purity balls, that they take the time to attend all of the joint classes and then spend an evening at this thing, we likely have a means of selecting from the larger sample those Evangelicals who, at least in their own minds, are fairly fervent followers of that faith.

Those are the very teens repeatedly shown to be in the most trouble.

That can mean one of two things:

(1). They are following an invalid faith — invalid because it doesn’t work.

(2). They are not following a valid faith which would work should they do so.

True, we are dealing with an entire demographic here of which some are less fervent then others — but it is a demographic that claims that the, “Way,” they offer = change. Statistically, if that were true, then the change should be impacting some of the members. Statistically, that impact should be evident or at least there should not be a negative shift seen.

To claim that this is indeed so in spite of the numbers seen, one would have to prove some outside variable (All promiscuous people go to church to not change their behavior and thus skew the sample for example) for one to see increased promiscuity and still claim the system works. Selecting out those people (As per first paragraph) should then deliver dramatically different results — but it doesn’t.

You seem to be assuming that the actions of these teens are caused by a life which actually is just the playing of a societal role or something. We could agree to that for a few kids — except it’s the entire demographic and repeated studies of such have found the same. We have to handle the entire demographic as a whole. So, we are back to the above two options.

My contention is that option #2 is the reality. That a faith based on shame/guilt tactics (Eg. Purity balls) is not a valid following of Christ — and thus will not work.

I care not at all for the people’s ethics — Everyone usually knows when what they are doing is stupid. That changes nothing. (Even the demons know — but it changes nothing there too.) If ethics would fix this, then we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

Change doesn’t seem to be coming from trying harder — so the faith needs to offer something. Either it offers a new formula of trying harder and some motivation to go along with such — or it offers something different.

My contention is that it should be a heart change founded upon intimacy with Christ — a Christ they still have people afraid of because they are still preaching a Jesus who died to get you to behave — rather then One who died to take sin away. (Yes, technically through me dying with Him to Sin, Law, Judgment etc.)

If Jesus really did die to take sin away, then I have no judgment to fear from Him — and I can hang out with Him — and hanging out with Him transformed and is transforming my heart — so I WANT to walk with Him and I don’t WANT to do stupid things.

Cal

]]> By: Kim http://www.henze-associates.com/blog/2008/10/29/cal/evangelical-abstinence/comment-page-1/#comment-16043 Kim Wed, 29 Oct 2008 21:32:50 +0000 http://www.henze-associates.com/blog/?p=1010#comment-16043 <p>We should be quite concerned that Christian faith makes no apparent difference in one's behavior. If the above is true, it calls into question Christianity itself - if it doesn't transform, what's the point? Yet while we all can quite easily complain about the lack of people who look like Jesus in our churches (for this appears to be the case no matter what the church/denomination), we also all know people who do. The problem with these statistics/surveys is that they do not (& cannot) differentiate between attendance & faith. It is a good thing that our churches are filled with people who are either just begining to follow Jesus, or who are checking him out - otherwise, we would be a very insular bunch. But we all know from experience that taking a random survey of our local church to measure the "change quotient" of belief in Jesus just doesn't cut it - there are many of us who (for many reasons, good and bad) just don't really take Jesus seriously. My point here is that when you do your best in a survey to narrow it down to people who take their faith seriously (and you can't do this perfectly), the results really are different. Christians who read their bibles daily, attend church weekly, and tithe really do get divorced significantly less, and teens who do the same really do wait till marriage (not all, but most). So it's easy to survey the flimsy ethics of the large group, but didn't we know that already as we looked down our pew? But we still go, week after week, because thankfully we do know others who we really do admire & desire to emulate, because we know them to be faithful - whether they are evangelical or Catholic - lovers of the God & Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.</p> We should be quite concerned that Christian faith makes no apparent difference in one’s behavior. If the above is true, it calls into question Christianity itself – if it doesn’t transform, what’s the point?
Yet while we all can quite easily complain about the lack of people who look like Jesus in our churches (for this appears to be the case no matter what the church/denomination), we also all know people who do.
The problem with these statistics/surveys is that they do not (& cannot) differentiate between attendance & faith. It is a good thing that our churches are filled with people who are either just begining to follow Jesus, or who are checking him out – otherwise, we would be a very insular bunch. But we all know from experience that taking a random survey of our local church to measure the “change quotient” of belief in Jesus just doesn’t cut it – there are many of us who (for many reasons, good and bad) just don’t really take Jesus seriously.
My point here is that when you do your best in a survey to narrow it down to people who take their faith seriously (and you can’t do this perfectly), the results really are different. Christians who read their bibles daily, attend church weekly, and tithe really do get divorced significantly less, and teens who do the same really do wait till marriage (not all, but most).
So it’s easy to survey the flimsy ethics of the large group, but didn’t we know that already as we looked down our pew? But we still go, week after week, because thankfully we do know others who we really do admire & desire to emulate, because we know them to be faithful – whether they are evangelical or Catholic – lovers of the God & Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

]]>