The success of legalism and the rule of law…
In 1988, I wrote to Vice President George Bush, then head of the South Florida Drug Task Force; to Education Secretary William Bennett; to Assistant Secretary of State for Drug Policy Ann Wrobleski; to White House drug policy adviser Dr. Donald I. McDonald; and to the public information directors of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Drug Enforcement Administration, General Accounting Office, National Institute of Justice, and National Institute on Drug Abuse. None of these officials was able to cite any study that demonstrated the beneficial effects of drug prohibition when weighed against its costs.[5] The leaders of the war on drugs are apparently unable to defend on rational cost-benefit grounds their 70-year-old policy, which costs nearly $10 billion per year out of pocket, imprisons 75,000 Americans, and fills our cities with violent crime. It would seem that Vernia Brown and many others like her have died for nothing.
Canada has essentially legalized drug use with the gram minimums for criminal prosecution. Isn’t it interesting how all Canadians suddenly went out and became junkies — oh, wait…
Just maybe, now is the right time when our Governments are going to figure out what Scripture always taught — being forced to be good usually makes people want to be bad — while freedom always drives them to seek the longings of their new and good hearts. Addiction is a problem with a broken heart in need of numbing — not a violation of anything but that heart which, yes, clearly was created for so much more.
Perhaps then we could turn the police services loose on the task of dealing with white collar criminals who bilk us out of untold billions every year — you know, the R. Allen Stanfords, the Bernie Madoffs and the CEOs of big residential lending firms that created the financial mess the world is in. Oh, ya, right — I GET IT now.
Ya, let’s push to lock up all the junkies…
March 6th, 2009 at 11:26 pm
The law of sin and death within us is what drives the rebellion against God’s law. Left to our own devices, I think we’d all turn into the CEO’s we’ve come to despise. After all, they live in freedom to do what they do because they feel the law doesn’t apply to them, don’t they?
Feel free to draw obvious parallels from that.
Every drug user I knew never did it to “oppose the government”. It was always to fill a huge gaping hole in their lives. They were bored. Sad. Lonely. No self-respect. If you’re helping people with that, then Godspeed my friend.
But CEO’s should probably just be shot on sight.
March 7th, 2009 at 2:39 am
Hi Billy,
Good to hear from you again.
What do you then make of Romans 8:2?
American King James Version
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
Think there is a chance that our new hearts will long for something different?
For example:
John 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
John 8:36 “So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
Romans 6:14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Romans 6:18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
Romans 7:4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
Romans 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
March 7th, 2009 at 1:40 pm
I must lament for a brief moment…why is is that whenever someone even hints at obedience to God’s Law people immediately shout “grace” as if to imply we must break the Law to truly follow God? Doesn’t say much about the current condition of the church does it? It also explains the current chaotic state of every man doing what is right in their own eyes.
There. I’m done.
Every verse you mentioned is true. However…you may want to back Romans up and include verse 1 and finish off with verse 15 to get a full view of the picture. “Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?” Don’t stop at verse 14.
If we are slaves to righteousness, then what is righteousness? Paul told Timothy that the scriptures ( Old Testament…the New did not exist yet ) was used for training in righteousness ( 2 Ti 3:16 ). In other words, God’s law ( ie. instruction ) is righteousness. We are free to follow without condemnation, and we should do so not out of duty but out of love ( Rev 14:12 ). Paul repeats that theme again and again.
Whereas we are indeed free from the law, we also bear the consequences in the here and now for breaking it. Everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial ( 1 Cor 6:12 ).
Ever wonder why many Jews are more blessed in many ways than most Christians? Ask a Christian Financial advisor just for one example. Jews look to the Law for instruction, whereas we feel we are obligated to ignore it out of fear of “Legalism-Boogey Man”.
All I’m saying is, why can’t we who are saved by grace also possess the wisdom of God’s law too? We can have it all folks. We can have it all.
March 8th, 2009 at 3:25 am
Hi Billy,
I’m so glad you brought up that verse:
One can approach the question from two totally different angles, for while Paul posed it in view of the impossibility factor (by virtue of death) it is more often asked in view of what SEEMS to be an obvious observation (by virtue of living).
In other words, in view of sin, we easily determine that all (even those who call themselves “believers”, especially our own selves) are still “missing the mark”. What we want to know is how we are able do what we’re not supposed to be able to do?
It doesn’t seem to be death that confuses us for its finality is just too inflexible. The confusion of the gospel issues from the absurdity of a co-experienced death and new life with Christ that just doesn’t seem to pan out according to what we see in the world around us.
You know, if it’s supposed to be an actual death and resurrection it sure doesn’t offer any indications to the senses or to the computations of logic. Then again, maybe death still confuses us beyond our imagination, since our perception of it seems to be bound by what appears to be, or not to be.
So, did we really die with Christ, or is this merely a teaching that rests upon symbolism? While we might talk about Christ having died FOR us, we pretty much gloss over this demand of the good news of having died WITH Christ — as if it were little more than a symbolic reference to how we OUGHT to think in order to better motivate a deeper devotion to God.
The truth of the matter is that we had already experienced death in another – the first man, Adam – so that our existence clearly reflected it in everything we thought, said and did — the world around us made us assume it was “normal” to exist in deadness.
In Adam we were dead IN sin (as well as, dead in our sins), while in Christ we were made dead TO (as in, toward) sin. The death we shared with Adam brought us into this world totally in relation to sin, but the death we shared with Christ removed us from its association. Both refer to a death that is as dead as dead can be. Morgue dead. Rotting-in-the-grave dead. Devoid-of-life dead.
If you are going to hold to the one death, then you MUST ALSO hold to the other.
The truth is that our having died with Christ is an integral part of THE faith of Christ that has been declared. Unfortunately, we have fallen victim to the contemporary hocus-pocus that says faith in Christ is about what WE have done with Christ as opposed to it being the very essence of the good news of Christ … so essential that it is the very embodiment of our hope, who is Christ himself.
There is a perspective that demands that to think otherwise is ludicrous. This is the viewpoint that is based upon the examination and judgment of sin, and it is called law. It takes thousands more forms then just the OT law and surrounds us every moment of every day.
The law convinces us that even though we are supposedly “saved” from sin through Christ we are still sinners who are subject to the law of sin. It’s only reasonable, isn’t it? After all, why would we ever think that just because we believe in Christ we would not still have to deal with sin? Unless, of course, we really did share in Christ’s death and also have been raised to new life in him.
“I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.” (Romans 14:14)
Here most do a “Yeah, but…” You know, as in KNOWING that Paul obviously wasn’t referring to those things that ARE unclean in themselves! So, how could it be that Paul could have ever been “CONVINCED in the Lord Jesus that NOTHING is unclean in itself”? What about all the evil stuff in the world? And yet the only exception he made had to do with the PERCEPTION of the one who regards something as unclean: “…to HIM it is unclean.”
He who regards himself as a sinner, to HIMSELF he IS a sinner.
“But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be! For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.” (Galatians 2:17-19)
This rather potent statement of Paul’s to the saints in Galatia describes through different wording what he also addressed in Romans 6-8, especially chapter 7. “Seeking to be justified in Christ” was one of Paul’s summations of the “other gospel, which is really not another” to which the Galatian believers were giving ear. “Seeking to be justified in Christ” is nothing other than a “Christianized” version of living by law, and this is what happens when we give heed to “another gospel”.
Simply stated, if the life to which Christ has called us is in fact based upon a seeking of acceptance in Christ so that our continued following Him – whatever one believes this to be – only proves how unacceptable we are, then Christ would be nothing but a dealer or an enforcer of sin. But then, that is totally absurd since Christ is the one who did away with sin. If I rebuild another “gospel” that re-establishes a relationship with God through some form of legality, then I am the one proving myself to be a law-breaker, or sinner.
Notice how Paul continued his point: “For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.” Exact same thing he told the Roman believers, for through death we were made alive to God. Now, why would I try to re-establish the thing that can only bring knowledge of sin when that thing is what killed me so that I could be delivered from it?
I can’t disagree with someone else’s affirmation of themselves as a sinner, because to them it IS the only truth that makes sense, and it can be verified by a written code and the violations thereof — only it’s ANOTHER gospel. After all, if one believes that they have the wisdom to pursue either God or evil, (To use your terms, “breaking it,” or, “look to the Law for instruction”) then it must be found in the law of sin and death.
However, the good news of Christ declares the removal of all that offends, so that there is nothing to miss in Christ!!
If all that offends has been removed, then we have nothing standing between us and relationship with God — no shame, no sin, no judgment, no condemnation and, above all, NO FEAR.
Those who are living in, “the current chaotic state of every man doing what is right in their own eyes.” are actually those who are trying to make up the rules themselves – usually by picking and choosing a set from the OT (Though you will pry their bacon from their cold dead fingers), the laws of the land and general superstitions. They hold themselves to be under a law – any law – that they believe will make them experience wealth, health, prosperity, righteousness or whatever.
The Jewish people? Yep, they have money – and not much else. The evangelicals? Don’t get me started. Look around. Our delusion that we got the good apple from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and can truly now see clearly – it’s laughable.
This is the best part of the Gospel – we can finally rest in the reality that we are all far to stupid to even come close to figuring out what is good or evil – and go back to what Adam and Eve originally had – just walking and talking with God. We can live a life of, “What’s next Daddy,” and leave it at that.
Cal
The above mostly stolen from Jim Minker.
March 8th, 2009 at 10:17 am
Take my lament from post 3 and repeat. I’m not talking about salvation. Why is it so impossible to communicate that? I’m not talking about salvation, but wisdom. I refer again to 2 Ti 3:16.
Psalm 119 seems to contradict a few of your points. I don’t know, it just seems that to a man after God’s own heart this the law was of immeasurable value. The more of it he knew, the more he knew his need for the Savior. Isn’t that the whole point?
Now, why is it that you constantly attack the evangelical church for being lawless or legalists or whatever? If we’re not under the law, then they’re living truer to YOUR creed that you are. What law are they breaking if we are under none? And yet if you say they should adhere to a standard, are you not just making the same point I am? And if there is a standard they should adhere to, then should it be man’s or God’s?
If the evangelicals have broken man’s standards, then they are guilty of nothing. In fact, Jesus did that very thing.
If they have broken God’s standards, then how would you even know what those standards are? Subjective emotion? This much I know, if “Daddy” tells you one thing…ONE thing…that contradicts his word, it didn’t come from God.
I also find your perception of the Jewish people from which our Savior came and spoke primarily to unfortunate. Perhaps I need some time to process what you’re trying to say in regards to that in order to get a fair picture of what you’re getting at. But a believing Jewish person who sees Jesus possesses grace as well as wisdom. Score!
I guess if I had one question it would be this…your take on 2 Ti 3:16. And maybe the source of your rage against the Evangelical machine ( who are our brothers and sisters in Christ ) for reasons that defy your own logic. But that’s just idle curiosity
March 9th, 2009 at 1:40 am
Hi Billy,
Why about salvation? Romans 14:23 — because whatever is not of faith is sin. It could be the most moral deed known to man or eating a Jr. Bacon Cheeseburger. If it is not a result of faith — which is, “Christ in you, the hope of glory,” — then it is lived under the law and is sin because no one will ever get it right.
Let’s take eating that bacon. The OT says, “Don’t.” The NT says, “Don’t call unclean what God has called clean.” Science (usually funded by the pork producers) says that primitive cooking techniques put you at risk for Trig and two other parasites while our modern Natural Gas BBQ’s make it safe so it’s OK to eat. Other science (usually funded by other producers) states that the fat in pork is horrible for you, puts your body under immense strain relative to a chicken breast and really is a bad idea to eat it (So have our chicken burger instead).
So, do you eat it? One adherent to the law may say that God outlawed it because it is bad and science confirmed that so don’t. The next adherent to the law may say that Peter’s vision made it OK to eat and science confirmed that so go for it. But, both are under the law and not living a life of faith. Seems God Himself contradicted Himself if we’re looking for consistency of message here so we also can’t stand on that…
My answer: God, should I have that bacon? If the answer is yes, then eating it is of faith and not of sin. Why? I’m NOT SMART ENOUGH to make the decision even to eat pork. I don’t buy people’s claim that they are all that wise after studying the law. Yes, they are wiser then doing nothing at all — but the wisdom of the law is a drop in the bucket compared to the wisdom of a life of, “What’s next Daddy,” and no, God’s wisdom and Man’s wisdom (From the law or wherever) don’t often add together to create something even better.
If someone is free from the law and lives under it, what law are they breaking? None. They are even free to live there — but as they live as though they are breaking some law, that places them under the bondage Jesus came to free them from.
Yes, we all can visibly see (According to the law) that it isn’t working — calling people to a different way is totally consistent with Paul’s repeated call to shake off a fraudulent version of holiness and allow Christ to live through them – who, by the way, DOESN’T lead us into a life of stupidity. How exactly is it inconsistent with a message of Grace and freedom to point out that a life lived under the law ALWAYS = chaos and heartbreak?
Timothy?
You are going to have to read that verse in light of Paul’s continued crusade against myths as referenced several verses later:
2Tim. 4:4 and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside to myths. (Myth with Paul = Jewish myth which = the law.)
It’s the same crusade he launched in Titus against those (The Judiazers) (Really among the most visibly moral and upstanding people of their society) who would reimport the law into the Gospel:
The Law pointed to Christ — using it to teach such isn’t putting people back under it. It’s pointing out the inadequacy of what came before (“detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.”) and the miraculousness of the new which has come.
BTW: Back to the bacon — it’s very interesting to me that while His answer is usually, “Yes,” when I ask that question and am sick, getting sick or getting over being sick, God’s answer was always no — even before I read about what sort of a strain pork puts on your body. There’s a huge comfort there for me (With what is sometimes a fairly weak immune system) in simply knowing I don’t need to be smart enough.
Cal
March 9th, 2009 at 6:20 am
So…you feel you are not under any moral system then?
What about the evangelicals? Are they breaking God’s statutes or man’s?
Incidentlly, referring to the Torah as jewish myths isn’t helping your argument. In judaism there is the written law and oral law. Paul…who remained a Pharisee…never called the Torah a myth and you should be utterly ashamed of yourself for even implying it. The Torah was made flesh ( memra )in the form of Jesus, and if it was just “myths” made flesh then your Messiah is a fraud.
Really, all you’re saying is that in Christ, you’re as free as a jaybird to do jack squat. Don’t we have enough of that kind of Christianity?
Wait a second…isn’t that what you’re accusing others of?
Which brings me back again to the evangelicals. You raid then mercilessly ( sans any grace whatsoever ) whenever they mess up, but I don’t logically see how you’re justified in doing so of we truly are free from any moral system.
Could it be they only “code” they’re breaking is yours?
PS: Romans 14 means “common”. In Leviticus, there is clean, unclean, common, uncommon. They are distinct. Not that it matters, enjoy your BLT.
March 9th, 2009 at 9:10 am
BTW, Peters vision has nothing to do with food…it has to do with calling a gentile unclean. Every reputable scholar would back me up on that. Sorry, but I couldn’t let that one go.
March 9th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
PSx2: Man, can I get my act together today? Alright, last one today I promise!! Give me a break, your post is all over the place!
Just to clairify what a Judaizer is: A Judaizer is one who says you must FIRST become a Jew and then a Christian, and that the law is connected with your salvation. Hence Galatians 5:2.
If Christian men were circumcised because they believed they had to obey the Mosaic Law in order to be saved, they were effectively saying Christ’s sacrifice was not enough to save them.
Neither of us believes that, so it’s a moot point for us to even bring it up.
If this were not so, then why did Paul remain “kosher”? ( Acts 21:24 ) Paul understood the wisdom of the law. ( 2 Ti 3:16…referring to myths indeed! )
Also, the Mark 7:18-20 passage doesn’t exist in the Greek either in case you bring it up. Read the KJV to get another picture of it. Jesus is not talking about clean/unclean…he’s talking about taking a “number 2″. :0
I only mention that to ruin your BLT experience
Shall we begin to wrap this up?
March 9th, 2009 at 5:38 pm
Hi Billy,
Moral system?
1Cor. 6:12 ¶ All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.
Rom. 14:14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Titus 1:15 To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.
Need I keep going?
I’m not under any moral system — I’m under and in Christ — though I’m even free to chose to be (To my own detriment) under such.
Torah:
Utterly ashamed? Nope — Rom 8:1 answers that — decisively.
You are right though — I wasn’t clear there.
The law, in its purest form, was not a myth though what the Jewish people had by then made it into WAS — furthermore, what really is a myth is that we are still answerable to it in any way — both were the myths Paul was after.
I already answered the evangelical thing. If I’m inconsistent with grace, then so was Paul.
Mark 7 — others can debate Alexandrian vs other texts until the cows come home — I’m not about that silliness — neither is this. Whatever Jesus was about there, the Peter vision was most definitely about food — read the preceding verses
Acts 11:3 saying, “You went to uncircumcised men and ate with them.”
Even the hot water he got into was about food — as was the vision.
Paul practicing (Probably somewhat endorsing) ritual cleansing did not interfere with his freedom to eat whatever other times — that’s not a validation of the need to follow the law. This is Paul proving a point to the local leadership to draw more to Christ — he did not reject the Jewish people or their culture — though he stood free of it.
As to Judiazer — ya, I got taught that in Sunday School and my undergrad too — though the profs finally did have the sense to back down on that lie during my graduate studies. No, it’s any combination. If not, why did Paul say this — or for that matter write the entire book to the Galatians?
“But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be! For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.” (Galatians 2:17-19)
Billy, why is it that you are so afraid God can’t do His job?
He has already made us past, present and future righteous through His death on the Cross.
If God managed the impossible already, then the Holy Spirit should be more then enough to lead each and every believer every moment of every day in the way that is closest to God’s will for our lives. He should be able to do so — without needing a law.
What if you and your religious leaders gave up all of your power systems and controls. What if you had no rule book to follow and what if you just spent every moment of your days (Plus the nights too) in the presence of Jesus. What if you quit placing people under the judgment of the law so they could shed their rags of shame, walk out into the light of the love of Christ and meet a God who loves them in spite of anything they had ever done or failed to do — a God who loves them for no good reason. What if you dropped your self made righteousness/principles/guidelines/controls/standards and just loved them with no moral strings attached?
I’ve seen what happens — the human heart is so hungry for that kind of love it drops all of the mud pies, climbs out of the mud puddle it has been rolling in and RUNS straight towards that love — leaving the old life behind. They end up ethically improved — but it is that response of a heart to love that is the core action of the Gospel — the ethics are just a bonus.
Or, maybe God is so impotent He needs someone to help crack the whip to make people behave…
Cal
March 10th, 2009 at 6:13 am
I think I’ve answered all your questions in triplicate. As I look back all the answers are there from the start, so we’re at the point where we’re repeating ourselves…again.
All I can add at this point is references ( in Acts the interpretation is even given! ). Also, please don’t accuse someone as “living in fear” who doesn’t subscribe to your interpretation…it sounds like an Amway sales pitch! Pursuing God’s holiness has been a blessing of immeasurable value I cannot describe. Sure beats Nintendo. Am I earning something? Go back, read my posts and you tell me.
It seems we’re looking at the same things through two different viewing glasses. Call mine what you will, but I feel as if I’m dealing with a heavy dose of liberal-postmodernism.
Maybe I’m one of your “legalistic Evangelicals”!
That being what it is, it has been a slice. Life calls!
And Bravo, good debate!