It wasn’t bait, it was a legitimate question. But whatever.

I think we’re all done here. Everybody’s gone. Be sure to turn the lights out when you leave.

2) Steaz Root Beer on a hot summer day.

I may be going out on a limb here, but can I assume I stumbled into an “Emergent” forum? It was pretty iffy for a bit there, but then you brought up the Irish Pub. Every emergent I’ve known wants to go for beer in a pub.

Not that I have a problem with that. But the stereotype is a case-study all its own that I would love to pursue! Combine that with the quasi-grace/experience/postmodernist language and now it’s all coming together.

Please correct me if I’m wrong!

There is a bit of an imbalance here that I should make mention of. Paul is quoted often when “grace” is required, and systematically ignored when he shows that sometimes you need to be “cruel to be kind”. Perhaps Paul needs to look into the eyes of Jesus too?

Balance people. Balance. You’re swinging the pendulum too far in the opposite direction due to a knee-jerk reaction. In doing so you’ve become the very thing you rant against. Inflexible. Unforgiving. Vengeful.

Accept that other people, including Evangelicals, are just that. People. You are neither better Christians nor have some better revelation than they do. Be sure you can withstand the same scrutiny you pile onto others. Most of us, myself included, cannot.

I’ve noticed that the things in life that drive me the most crazy are attributes I see in myself! I’m guessing that’s true for most.

And sorry, Calgary is a weeee bit out of the way for me! I appreciate the offer nonetheless. I don’t mind continuing this here for a little while if that works, although we both need to understand that this is a discussion of opinion and not a “convincing contest”.

As far as a different venue is concerned, there are some great Irish pubs in Calgary. Ever around?

I’m also sorry that this discussion has degraded into an anger-fest, and I feel I’m about one post away from being name-called. Lets hang it up now while we’re still being remotely civil. Our points have been made.

Honestly, on a personal level I have no problem with you whatsoever. You have your reasons for what you do. Just because I understand you doesn’t mean I think you’re EVIL or something!

All I’m saying is that as an Evangelical to a ‘whatever the heck it is you are’, you may have Evangelicals grossly misunderstood, or worse, colored by a handful of negative experiences that you refuse to let go of. Life’s about being disappointed, so I’d say find a way to adjust.

Vivian: I still have no idea what you’re talking about. Are you trying to imply that Jesus broke the Law of Moses or something? If he did, then he’s not the Messiah, just a nice guy who finished last. In any case, that’s a subject for another time, and perhaps even a different venue.

Oh, of course Billy. You totally get me — you read me like a book — or maybe even like a human version of the Holy Spirit. It’s like looking into a mirror…

{SIGH}

Go back and actually read what I wrote with an open mind — because, if there’s one thing your answer makes clear, you didn’t.

Cal

Nice to see you again. Just one small question. or 2. Back in the time by what authority did the pharisees remain in their positions? I mean the ones who ordered the hit on Jesus?

What sort of eye contact do you think Jesus made with the woman as she sat before him and poured perfume on his hair?

Vivien.

1) You’ve admitted to being in a counseling situation where you have rebuffed by those who are affiliated with “Evangelicals”.

2) You feel the “church” is entirely political, and does not know the heart of Jesus, like you feel you apparently do.

3) You are angry at those who you feel are an obstacle to your mission. Therefore, you desire to tear down the existing establishment and replace it with something you feel is more in tune with Christ’s true mission.

My presuppositions seem to have a good foundation.

Here is my take on the whole ordeal, in that order.

1) Get used to it. You think everybody is going to agree with you? I can’t find two people in my church who agree with me! If you need to break away to do your thing then do it. Just don’t get all vindictive about it.

2) Get used to it. Politics are unavoidable in EVERY aspect of life. Even yours. Jesus dealt with them. Paul dealt with them. In some cases, Paul dealt with them quite harshly. You will never find a group of believers in ANYTHING where politics will not eventually come into play. Even yours. I guarantee it.

3) Be angry. That’s your prerogative. But don’t let it consume you because that’s just not healthy for anyone. Accept that you cannot change everyones opinion. Accept that yours may not be entirely correct either.

I can’t sit here and say we as evangelicals have it all together any more than you can say you do. We’re all doing the best we can do with what we’ve got. Just don’t give me that “heart of Jesus” schlock regarding evangelicals. I don’t think you even know what you’re saying.

And no, the man is not to be healed while STILL in a position of authority over the church. That’s a theme common throughout the epistles. In that instance, I must lovingly tell you that you are clearly in the wrong. Considering the political strife Paul dealt with we actually have a vault full of examples to look at. None of them condone this for a person in authority.

So what would the heart of Jesus do? He’d do exactly according to his Word, and His Word says this man cannot keep his position of authority in the church.

As for your personal experiences with Living Waters, I cannot comment without getting the other side of the story. That only seems fair.

Now get out there and have a good weekend!! I’ll check back in on Monday. Later!

Oh, and by the way — A number of years ago I had a conversation with a pastor (Who will forever remain nameless) from which we were trying to rent the basement of his church for a Living Waters Program. He said:

“It’s great that someone is trying to help those people but the board has decided not to allow you to rent our church for a couple of reasons. You see, while we know this is a growing problem, this just isn’t an issue anyone at [Name of church] has and the board has determined that the liability risk of bringing THAT sort of person into our building is just too great given that we have no need for it here.”

AT THAT VERY MOMENT, THAT PASTOR, IN HIS CHURCH OF ABOUT 150 PEOPLE HAD AT LEAST FIVE MEMBERS WHO WERE GAY OR LESBIAN — TWO OF WHICH WERE SLEEPING WITH EACH OTHER AND ONE OF WHICH WAS CURRENTLY IN THE LIVING WATERS PROGRAM.

They punt him, feed the media BS lines and pay hush money to his other sexual partners (Yes, other church members) and the media circus results.

They keep him and a media circus results.

On that front, there’s no difference and neither work.

While that observation is so very true, no, you definitely DON’T get me — you get your presuppositions of me mostly.

Try this on for size: Suppose the NAE or the individual church decided to actually ask what the heart of Jesus would do for the broken instead of their usual tired political game?

Suppose they stood up and admitted that Ted did what he did instead of doing this stale damage control/lying? Suppose they didn’t even bother to hide the other church members he’d been having sex with instead of paying hush money?

Suppose they told him that they were finally going to get real about the entire church and were going to admit that the entire place was filled with broken people — did a survey and went public with that too?

Suppose they came out and made a public statement that they were not removing him from his position but were merely appointing an individual to act in his place while he healed?

Suppose they got him connected with credible healing http://www.desertstream.org/ instead of the bogus, “Think happy thoughts about not being gay,” nonsense he spewed out over the airwaves?

Suppose they had him put up a blog like this:

http://www.nakedpastor.com/archives/3260

and demanded he get this deeply and pervasively real with his own heart and healing journey with any who wanted to read it?

Suppose they blew all their secrets out into the open, healed him IN his position, ministered to, openly hung out with and loved his family and children just as openly?

Suppose they rebranded themselves as a place of wholeness and healing instead of squeaky clean judgment lead by a new talking head that, right now, manages to fit their collective illusions of holiness?

Suppose they stood up and publicly admitted that the hostility and condemnation they inflicted on the homosexuals, transvestites, abortionists, erotic media producers, rock stars, movie stars and nearly everyone else in the world was completely contrary to the heart of Jesus for broken people and akin to tossing people out of the hospital because they are sick?

Suppose they took this opportunity to demonstrate before the entire world how Jesus would love a truly broken person and how the power of God can heal that person without them inflicting ANY punishment on him?

Perhaps we wouldn’t be such an idiotic joke to the world in general any longer?

It was driving me crazy, because every time you’d accuse the “evangelicals” of this that or the other thing, I wondered to myself, “does he mean pentecostals, baptists, brethren, orthodox, etc?”

So, Ted Haggard. Hmm. Let’s see here. Wiki says he’s hired homosexual prostitutes and took meth. Apparently his views are also Neo-charismatic. Sounds like an interesting, yet lost soul. It appears as if he’s getting some help form those awful evangelicals in regards to his struggle, but just not allowed to keep the presidency.

Soooooo, what you’re saying is that the NAE was wrong in ousting him as president? Sorry, but if I use the New Testament church as my criteria, there’s just no way to have it otherwise.

Let’s put it this way, if he stayed, people like you or those in the secular world would change your attack and use him as a tool to accuse evangelicals even more. There’s no way anyone wins here.

I think I’m starting to get you. Fascinating.

NRA? I thought you were Canuck? (I shot in college BTW…) No matter…

To get that card on the south side of the 49th, apply to the National Association of Evangelicals for such:

http://www.nae.net/

Whichever fresh-smelling talking head they replaced Ted Haggard with (After they gave him the right foot of fellowship out of the hospital door for being too broken) would be happy to send you one and even sign you up as a member of one of their dozens of action groups protesting just about everything.

Happy trails…

The Evangelical Fundamentalist Right is gonna be in here like a dirty shirt trying to fight any legal changes on this and codify their disagreement to such so it will prohibit this sort of union — just like they did Gay marriage. (Or rather, tried…)

None of which, of course, will slow it in the slightest seeing as we already have a number of very public figures (Erotic film stars) already VERY publicly living this lifestyle.

Somehow, the right has forgotten that you can’t legislate morality and that the most critical changes can only happen in the human heart when you first remove all shame and judgment — and then, in the loving presence of the grand Designer, start to heal the product as it was intended to be healed.

But, that might mess up the crushed velvet pews to have Mr. and Mrs. and Mrs. sitting on them. Yep, better put in a cool band with a light show instead. After all, it’s all about the children…

Cal

Do you think slippery is a big enough word???

Ouch.