Thanks.

Shawna — yes, it definitely is one of those transformations.

Cal

Perhaps in doing what God does (which is He puts everyone’s sin on the same level), it doesn’t even make judgment feel the same way (sort of even takes the fun out of it). It’s like that when somebody sins, or we sin (it doesn’t matter how, because it is all the same) then the whole world takes the hit in some way. Society is really good though at separating it all out and removing themselves from it and any if the responsibility. Reading about Tiller and the choices he made seemed to make me want to think more about how things were able to get to that point and not just about the choices he made. It just was somehow not just about him, but about us (society), and it even felt a little personal. I have no idea what to do about that, but that’s how it felt. It also made me want to question God as well, not in an accusatory way though, just in a way that says “I know you have a plan, but can you help me to understand, because this hurts?” I guess with all the things that I see on the job now, it pushes me even harder to try to understand God’s grace and I need to believe that there is plan and that He has it all in His hands. Like He is telling me that I am not supposed to try and carry any of it, nor do I have the capacity or the ability to do so. Maybe that is one of the gentle and tender transformations you mentioned.

Oh, and Cal, please…………………..never stop walking.

Considering the bullet holes in MY ass from some of the above posts, no distance at all — I couldn’t even find the ladder to climb it if I wanted to…

I really have so little figured out. I can’t even fix my own heart let alone the heart of anyone else. All I can do for myself or anyone else is walk or walk with others into the presence of One who can. He gets the job of figuring out who He wants to transform all of us into.

On the one hand, I know that I have already been made perfect in Christ — and some of my heart gets that. The rest still lives under lies. That part God is still working on transforming in His gentle and tender way.

I have to trust that I am exactly where God wants me to be right now and that He will be faithful to continue to draw me into truth — and into an intimate relationship with Himself.

Cal

I understand what you are saying about God’s judgment and how it is difficult to comprehend, especially when we are to see that we all fit into the same category in His eyes. In all honesty, I think I have gotten a little better at being able to give it up to Him and allow Him to judge in those times when I really want to, but I do also admit that it doesn’t always work.

But, I was kind of wondering more about our own judgment as individuals, the one we have trouble controlling despite what we know about Grace. The one that I really, truly believe never goes away, no matter how hard we may try. Oh, I think we can improve it, but I think there will always be something that will make it rear its ugly head now and again. I just was maybe wondering if we try in those moments when judgment jumps to the head of the line, to consciously think about extending it out further and including people we don’t want to see in that way, or maybe even including ourselves, then would it help us to learn how to not judge or perhaps judge less harshly? It seems like, when those times come when we do have difficulty not judging, we tend to narrow things down to one target and we can take the smallest amount of information and turn it into a life sentence for someone in a heart beat. And sometimes we don’t even care if we don’t have all the facts; we just want to sink a ship and ease the pain. Maybe it is that we want to keep the focus on one spot to keep the light from shining in our own direction and then having to judge ourselves or be judged by someone else. I feel like lately though, my tendency has been to not have one focal point for my judgment. I am not really sure why though. It’s like everything switches over to a much larger picture and then rather than having an extreme, and precisely focused anger, it is more broad and less intense, and it seems to include much more sadness. Like in some way I am feeling inside like nothing is as a result of one person, one action, one choice or one anything. I think that no matter what though we are and always will be under judgment by someone. It could be someone close to us or it could be coming from society judging us or judging someone who has made similar choices. We still feel it, even if it is not pointed at us directly.

I guess I was also just wondering how far up on the ladder you really have to be before society thinks that somebody should just shoot your ass.

The core of my post above is that neither he, you or me — or anyone else who is in Christ — deserves that or is under that judgment.

I too worked in medicine — emergency medicine — I know at least one young woman I could have saved is dead because I choose not to save her life by the side of the road. I’ve forever wondered/suspected if I should have broken protocol and saved her but I followed my training… Some would see me as a murderer on the same level as the SS during WW2 for they too just followed orders. Right after that event, so did I.

I find myself able to see others through the lens of grace in most cases — but here I struggle. Probably, at least in part, due to Ros and I having lost a child. But, my struggle doesn’t change God’s grace…

I get the sense you are asking something deeper though. Can you expand?

Cal

Before anyone gets worked up, let me say that I am not trying to let him off the hook by any means (I was just a little curious about a different line of thinking). Also, it is just that I can’t help but feel that he is perhaps not the only one that responsibility needs to fall on. I mean, he obviously didn’t run the place alone. Should the judgments made (I know, we really shouldn’t be making any judgments) extend to all the staff that worked with him? Should it extend to the government because what he did is legal in some states? And going out even a bit further, should it extend out to all the medical suppliers that continued to sell him the supplies to run the clinic or to all the companies that supplied him with power, water, or telephone service? I’ll even go so far as to ask, should it extend to all the women who entered his clinic and asked the question “Dr. Tiller, can you help me?” (They made a choice too)

I mean, I guess I am partly curious because of my own career choices as well. I have worked in a medical laboratory for many years and have handled my fair share of both spontaneous and therapeutic abortions, in fact, I don’t think I could put a number on how many. I don’t like it, but it is part of my job description. Does that mean that the same scrutiny should extend to me as well because I also play a small part in a similar process?

I do have to whole heartedly agree with you guys in that it is extremely hard not to judge in this situation. I guess that I am just hoping that if I try to look at things from a variety of different perspectives; then maybe I will be able to increase my understanding of God’s grace, because I really need to.

And yes Cal, we have addressed this multiple times amongst ourselves. My goal is merely to point out that you have created a theological law unto yourself that does not reflect historic Christianity as handed down from the apostles.

The abortionist situation just pointed out the obvious incompatibilty with your own personal theology with that of a God who pointed out quite clearly that murderers will not inherit the kingdom of God, has told us to recognize true followers from their actions, and if you truly love God you will obey.

Using grace as a magic covering doesn’t fool God nor prevent Him from doing what is just, right, and perfect.

Were I to invoke math, 60,000 dead babies-repentance=not looking so good for the Doctor.

Like I said, your definition of grace may need some revision.

Sounds like you said something to the effect of “I’m out”, so I’ll now leave you be. Case closed.

Always in courtesy,
BR

Yes, you are dead on. The passage is about how the heart of God will leave all the righteous people to go find the sheep that strayed.

The verse in question (Matt 18:6) is a preamble to such. It describes how conversion is not about some high intellectual pursuit but about becoming as simple Children who run to their Father.

The stumbling in question was targeted at the religious leaders present and how they continually regarded themselves as the arbiters of who could come to God. (I would suggest that the implication is that their religion actually separated people from God — though that is not stated.)

The passage ends with Jesus opening fire on their understandings of sin where he has this to say about how he handles debts owed to Him and where we stand if we refuse to repent and see the world through His eyes (BTW: The Greek word for repent is METANOIA — it has nothing to do with behavior and everything to do with a change of perception or a change of mind):

Matt. 18:32-34 “Then summoning him, his lord said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you entreated me. ‘Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, even as I had mercy on you?’ “And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

So much of the church takes that one verse (Millstone) out of context, acts like Grace is a magic potion you earn rather then a blanket gift of God He offers to any who would come and makes it to be about that which formerly was — your sin. It’s more fun because you can control people that way…

Cal

You know, I actually addressed your last post and already addressed most of this one too…

An actual debate would be if you did the same for mine instead of continuing to repeat your earlier post different ways…

I’m out.

Cal

Grace is not some legal loophole that gets you in the door despite your unwillingness to repent. That is why I’m telling your definition of grace and freedom is wrong. Sorry, it’s just flat out wrong and borders on universalism.

Yes, God’s grace did apply to Tiller. Yet he did not use it, he abused it. He killed 60K babies and was unrepentant about it. Do you see that? Unrepentant. You have removed God’s holiness from his grace and have neutered Him.

And what did Jesus say would happen to a person who “harms one of these little ones”? Rough talk for the King of grace.

Now you tell me, was he a follower of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?

I think as I feel my own personal pain in my life right now, that still, nothing that can happen here, in our daily events, can equal the pain of being separated from God himself. As we search for fullness, contentment, happiness in what we can get here, in our earthly lives, we are met with tastes of that, and then inevitably wretched pain comes upon us for various reasons.
pain of thinking of death of babies, botched relationships, am I delinquent? etc.

What comes of it, it seems at least to me, is an attempt to control, to put answers on things, to figure out God. Why are YOU doing this? why are you not doing this, God.

Do you care? We arrive at different camps. Why would babies die to people who do not want them? And perhaps worse, or is it? Why would babies die to people who want them more than life itself? God? A part of me wants to know. But not the whole of me, because I don’t trust. It hurts too much to keep asking. I’m scared.

And so in that, we miss out on the fullness of His deity, His comfort, His character. Our guilt, our disappointment, our shame. They harm. We hide. The doctor keeps killing because he is afraid. the plains of Grace are too terrifying. Too unknown. Too little seen. What if there is no God at all. What if he is not good. We justify. We try harder.
When all that is left is too surrender, look up, drop down in weakness, admit helplessness.

Oh Jesus, I want to do that right now. I am afraid.
It’s like I still want to get it right. To make it right here on earth. To feel complete here in this world. Before i die. Just once. My head knows the futility of that, but my heart…

that i could receive your Love ever deeper. Well, I say, You have to love because of your character. So you don’t have a choice but to love me. Is that true? I want someone here to love me like you do, because that would mean a real choice from someone who does not have your character. That would give me real meaning, wouldn’t it?
Or would it?

Does all this pain and tribulation in this world give us perseverance and then character like you have?

Can you help me to wait in patience in my pain while you work things out for the good? Cause if you can’t, I can’t. And my only alternative is to find others who have it worse than me or better. And to go then and move in and out of addiction to numb my pain. And to criticize. And you know how good I am at that. But I find that doesn’t help my pain.
And the heart that you have restored in me cries out for something more real. More fluid.

help us Father.

John 6:37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

An amazing set of assumptions going on there…

He reformed? No — but he came to Christ — Christ reforms us anyway not what we do ourselves — we can’t… See above — Jesus casts no one away.

(I have to believe that even applies to people who kill 60k children unless I’m going to come to believe that God has an invisible line of badness beyond which grace can not extend.)

He used grace as a license? Who says he even grasped it or understood what it is that he came to? Who says you or I get grace or what we have come to either?

If my theology hit a wall, then by definition he either must not be covered by grace or Jesus never dealt with sin in those who can’t/don’t perform. If so, then you actually appear rather certain as to where he is roasting away right now.

My THEOLOGY says God sees all sin to be alike and everyone who does any of it to be worthy of death. That’s why Jesus had to come to set all of us free from the law, sin and death so I am not judged by any of it — even that which I, in my ignorance or willfulness, will never even grasp.

My BROKEN HEART which still lives partially in law and judgment tends to see Tiller as much worse then me — God sees all of us the same (If that’s the wall of reality, then I confess — of course, I already did but with no intention to change my theology…)

Even that judgment is a violation of love and I (as above) admit powerlessness (and often remorselessness) to do anything about it. I hear AC/DC playing the theme song of where your theology has me headed — Highway to Hell.

It seems your THEOLOGY sees his sin as worse then your own for we all do much, “Without remorse,” that the law would judge. Does grace only cover what we figure out? What if you continue with say arrogance (just because it seems to work and you never think it through) until you die and never even grasp what it is you carry? (We could call at least 1/2 of that, “Using grace as a license,” too…)

Does grace not cover stuff you don’t get? Or, does it only not cover what you consider the really bad stuff people don’t get? What about if they do get it but can’t fix it (Like they do the fixing of it anyway)? What if they bought into lies that make that stuff make sense?

If the grace of God doesn’t apply to Tiller, then idiots like us are screwed too…

Correction refused.

Cal

No, your theology of grace and freedom just ran into the wall that is reality. I therefore suggest your theology may need some further revision.

Really, I’m not trying to be a smart-alec, but I’ve been implying this for quite some time now over numerous posts: That being YOUR interpretation of grace and freedom is not consistent with the Biblical interpretation of grace and freedom. You’ve merely redefined the words. However, I never expected a reformed Lutheran abortionist to make my point for me. Another one of life’s little surprises.

As for said abortionists eternal destiny, I’m not sure anyone can say where he is with certainty. But if he used his grace as a license to kill 60,000 babies without remorse, then I doubt much more needs to be said.

In loving correction,
BR

I hear you.

The standard Evangelical cop out is to say that, since he clearly didn’t get it, he’s not one of His.

It’s quick, dirty and no one has to actually wrestle with grace and freedom. It’s tempting — even a refreshing — idea.

But, while it is, perhaps, less obvious, I don’t get it either…

Cal

It’s tough to see if this abortion doc really “got it” once he became a believer. Did he have a relationship with Jesus? If so why would he still continue to perform abortions afterwards? It’s pretty tough to justify 60,000 abortions as “medically necessary.”

You are absolutely right!

I’m so used to nearly anything being wrapped up in religion that I didn’t even notice that part…

The more I think about it though, the other half of this story is a place where my heart and my theology have not caught up with each other. Just targeting stupidity (of ideas — while leaving the person under God’s grace) mostly is easy — but here I find myself unable to avoid pure judgment for him:

My theology knows that even killing 60k innocent children is covered by the grace of God if one comes to Him — which, apparently, this man has. It also tells me that Christ dealt with sin on a once-and-for-all basis on the cross and even included this guy. It even tells me (Luke 13:1-9) that one who does not repent persists in evaluating all things as before — seeing him as a worse sinner than any other/myself — and that that as long as I persist in seeing it this way, my death will be viewed (by other people) in the same way.

In other words, my own theology of grace and freedom profoundly annoys me right now…

The rest of me — especially the medically trained part as well as the part which has lost a child — considers (Yep, outright judges) another medically trained person who could do something so much more extreme then a normal abortion 60k times to have been a special case (Which really should have been outside of God’s grace) and a complete monster — that part of me can’t help but find it irritating that God’s grace covers him and that he is as washed clean and spotless as I am…

I guess I’m glad God is in charge of dispensing full-on grace to both the younger brother and the older (The real prodigal) brother for there’s obviously some of both in me. I don’t like that inconsistency either — or the reality that God is going to have to heal that Elder Brother corner of my heart that still lives under the law (and feels self-righteous about it) because there’s also nothing I can do to fix it…

Cal

There’s also something “really bent” about an abortion doctor serving in a church and therefore, one assumes, a believer.

sick and ironic and twisted all around.